The $100M Question: How Airlines Can Win with Packaging

Welcome to Travel Buddy

In this episode, Nowell Outlaw, CEO of Switchfly, tackles the “$100 million question”: how can airlines win with dynamic packaging and loyalty programs? He discusses the industry’s challenge of low engagement in loyalty programs, highlighting the vast number of unredeemed points that sit as liabilities on airline balance sheets. Nowell explains how dynamic packaging—bundling flights with hotels, rentals, and activities—can improve customer value, drive point redemption, and open new revenue streams for airlines.

The conversation emphasizes the technical and financial complexities of building such systems in-house. Outlaw explains how Switchfly, with over two decades of experience, simplifies these challenges for airlines, offering rapid deployment (as fast as 90 days), ongoing support, and marketing guidance. Real-world examples, including clients achieving $500M in new revenue over five years, underline the high stakes and high rewards. Ultimately, Nowell advises airlines to focus on speed and partnerships to avoid costly missteps and fully unlock the power of loyalty and packaging.

Transcript

Brandon Giella (00:00.77)
Hello and welcome back to another episode of Travel Buddy presented by SwitchFly. I have with me, back again after many episodes of a hiatus, have Nowell Outlaw, the CEO of Switchfly. Nowell, thank you for joining. I'm so excited to see you again.

Nowell Outlaw (00:15.477)
Hey Brandon, good to see you. It's been a while.

Brandon Giella (00:17.644)
It has been a while. Well, I am excited to talk to you today because we are talking about the hundred million dollar question, how airlines can win with packaging. Now, what is so interesting is we have talked a lot about loyalty in the past. We've talked a lot about the challenges. We've talked about dynamic packaging. But what I'm interested to hear from you is how are airlines piecing these tools together to provide a good experience for clients?

and for customers and what's getting in the way of that? And so this is where that hundred million dollar question comes in. And so I want to start with, there's this great report that came out many years ago, not many years ago, a couple of years ago from McKenzie, it's called Winning and Loyalty. And they presented through their research, through many surveys, some stats that I thought can help frame this question where they talk about why loyalty matters. And just to give a brief overview.

They say that 64 % of customers in loyalty programs are more likely to purchase more frequently. Half are more likely to recommend to others. 35 % are more likely to choose that brand over its competitors. And 31 % are more willing to pay a higher price to stay with the brand.

Now, the interesting thing here is this was written through COVID. And so it had some different takes on supply constraints and things like that. So was kind of the perspective of the report. But this one other stat talked about that there is a saturated loyalty landscape with low engagement. And so it talked about how there is less than 50 % of active loyalty members within any kind of the programs that they serve.

And I know that this kind of stat, this inactivity is, is replete in the airline community with their customers. are trillions of points that are totally unredeemed, which creates a liability for airlines. And it creates this kind of, kind of like lack of engagement with the brand. And so there are some ways that, you guys have, have built and have talked about before, for kind of getting at this engagement, which we'll talk about in a second.

Brandon Giella (02:31.723)
But talk to me a little bit from an airline's perspective, this challenge that they have with inactive loyalty membership. What is going on there? Why is it a problem? And why is this something worth solving?

Nowell Outlaw (02:45.239)
You know, I think the airlines do a really good job in marketing to people with their status, right? But I literally was sitting there yesterday with my wife, because she always uses my points. Oh, can you do an upgrade? Can you buy a ticket for our kids or whatever? And she happened to have her app up. And I'm like, you have 165,000 points. Why am I?

Brandon Giella (03:03.245)
Absolutely.

Brandon Giella (03:09.205)
yes.

Nowell Outlaw (03:11.115)
it's been doing this stuff and she's kind of like banking it. I think when it's just flight only, there's perfect use cases for that if you can actually get.

get the upgrade, get the seats, right, and do the points. It's also, you really creating value for the consumer, right? And what we've found is, in the dynamic packaging side of it, the airlines are actually able to create a lot of value for the consumer, but I don't necessarily think that the consumers are aware that those programs exist, right? So, and.

Brandon Giella (03:35.425)
Hmm.

Brandon Giella (03:53.779)
yeah, okay. So really quickly define dynamic packaging because I know I want to get there and I want to talk more about that, but what are we talking about?

Nowell Outlaw (03:58.421)
So yeah, dynamic packaging is really taking a flight and then combining it with another product. So a hotel, right? So if you're going Denver to Cancun.

and you're flying whatever airline that you're flying, can I also add the hotel, add the car rental, add the activities, so I have basically a whole package in my trip. The interesting way to think about this is that people sometimes think of it as packages in travel where I have to do this, but really, dynamic packaging for consumers.

is a way if I use the, what you're really used to is bundle and save. When you think about Xfinity or Comcast, or if you do your cable bill or your insurance.

Brandon Giella (04:48.683)
Hmm.

Brandon Giella (04:53.483)
I was thinking insurance, yeah.

Nowell Outlaw (04:54.743)
Yeah, airlines have these programs where it's, you know, it may be branded as vacations, but it really is a bundle and save ability for you to save money. And there's plenty of case examples of people out there. The points guy has an article about an airline where no matter what they tried to do on retail trying to do it, they could not get the same rates as they get when they did the package.

search on on that client.

Brandon Giella (05:26.989)
And you've talked about it. I don't want to go into all the details because we talked about this in episodes past, but where there's basically, you know, coupon codes and relationships and contracts in place that make it to where that package is actually, that's the thing. It's the best possible rate that you can get. There's a lot of technical and different issues why that's the case, but yeah, fascinating.

Nowell Outlaw (05:46.465)
Yeah. Well, an airline is motivated to have their planes full, right? Because that's how they make money. what you'll also see is that sometimes the airlines might discount a certain segment, right? So if they're trying to expand into a market or they're really focused on a particular destination, they might actually do those seats lower.

Brandon Giella (05:52.685)
Yes.

Nowell Outlaw (06:16.183)
if it's combined with a package, right? And then they bundle in the hotel savings and things for the consumer and ultimately, you they don't even have to give you a discount code. It's cheaper, right? Then if you try to go buy that in a retail store.

Brandon Giella (06:28.373)
Hmm Okay So it's a win for the consumer because we get better rates and we get I guess one Place to go one itinerary that's all put together and it's a win for the airline because How would you explain that?

Nowell Outlaw (06:39.863)
Correct.

Nowell Outlaw (06:47.863)
Well, it's a win for the airline because if you think about, if I'm flying Denver to Cancun and let's just say it's $500 a seat, if it's my wife and I that go and I spend it pure in points, it's $1,000. But I'm there for a week, I'm staying in some resort and I rent a car. Well, the resort just to stay there, let's say that's $3,000 and the car is another $500.

Brandon Giella (07:14.061)
Hmm.

Nowell Outlaw (07:16.999)
If you're not doing the packaging component as an airline, you're just selling the thousand dollars, you're missing out on the other $3,500 in the ability to burn down the points, Financially, the airline is carrying these points on their books. They have to be burnt off.

Brandon Giella (07:27.757)
Mmm.

Nowell Outlaw (07:38.003)
If instead of burning off $1,000, I can now burn off $4,500, and the person, the consumer's gonna spin that either way, and the consumer would rather spin their points than now I have to whip out a credit card and buy the hotel separately, right? And so being able to do that all in one place is beneficial to the airline, and it's also beneficial to the consumer.

Brandon Giella (07:48.141)
Hmm.

Brandon Giella (07:56.718)
Right, right, right.

Brandon Giella (08:06.315)
right. So, okay, so we're talking money here. You're talking to the CFO of an airline or, you know, head of revenue or whatever that looks like. And the case is use dynamic packaging.

embrace this loyalty narrative, the technology underpinning it, all the experiences and the packages that can be put together because it actually helps your balance sheet in real ways. It helps reduce the liabilities on your balance sheet while at the same time creating new revenue streams. helping the income statement. so speaking like financial language, this is a huge win by putting these things together.

Nowell Outlaw (08:47.137)
For sure, for sure. it's, know, some people have been successful doing this. Some people have been really successful doing this. And some people have failed at doing this. I think it depends on the program, where you are, the destinations that you're able to serve. But you know, it does offer to those loyalty consumers, right, if you bring this back to the loyalty user, a different option than just redeeming for a flight, right?

Brandon Giella (09:16.159)
Okay.

Nowell Outlaw (09:17.079)
hey, now I could redeem for a hotel or I could redeem for a car. I could redeem for a flight plus a hotel plus swim with the dolphins at some activity. by using, if I'm a platinum status person, I could have two, three, 400,000 points in my account burning that down just doing single route.

Brandon Giella (09:20.258)
Yeah.

Nowell Outlaw (09:44.375)
flights, that's a lot of travel, right? If I'm a high traveler, so I'm a high profile traveler, I have a lot of points. Maybe I'm not using a credit card, but I am using a credit card.

But do I want to get back on a plane and go week after week after week to burn those points? Probably not. Would I rather take my family on a vacation with a hotel all bundled in and burn down half my points then? I might want to be able to do that. So there's value for the consumer in being able to basically redeem for more.

Brandon Giella (10:14.091)
Interesting. Yeah, yeah.

Brandon Giella (10:21.815)
So it's a win-win for the airline, for other folks in that ecosystem, and then win-win for the consumer. Why don't more people do it? This seems like an obvious like, well, sure, I should look into this tomorrow.

Nowell Outlaw (10:34.255)
Because it's complicated right and I think that it's it can be very very hard and you have to understand The market which are getting into You know certain airlines. It doesn't make a lot of sense, right if if you're a small You know

Brandon Giella (10:36.066)
Okay.

Brandon Giella (10:47.245)
Hmm.

Nowell Outlaw (10:51.831)
that you're just flying to, you know, up into Canada, might not make a lot of sense for you. But you know, if you're a Caribbean airline, it might make a ton of sense because, where do people go on vacation? Well, they go to the Caribbean. Well, why not? If you're the guy that's taking the people to that island destination, why don't you be the people that also sells them the hotel and also sells them the activities and do all that other stuff, right?

Brandon Giella (11:16.141)
That's right. That's right. So this brings us to the hundred million dollar question. So the thing that you guys talk about is you have put a lot of money into building this platform the right way to package things in the right way, the right things that you're packaging. You have all the relationships and all of that. It's super complicated. So you can spend a hundred million dollars to build it or you can.

work with Switchfly, but before we get there, talk to me a little bit about what is some of the complexity that goes into that? So we've talked about this before on the show, but not quite in this way. So when you're thinking about all of the things that have to go into a dynamic packaging solution, it is so great, connects to loyalty, it's a win-win for everybody involved, but you have to get a lot of things right.

So you got to package things together. There's the reporting, there's financial, there's legal, there's all that infrastructure. And then of course there's currencies, languages, know, you can't, I think he said this earlier before we started talking or recording that, you know, you can't just be in English. You've got to have many, many languages down to the little, you know, pop-up screens and all kinds of things. You've got a hundred thousand things going on the right way. Yeah. So tell me a little bit about that. And then also like, like the connectors between

a hotel and a car and the experience and all of that working together. How does that even happen?

Nowell Outlaw (12:42.741)
You know, it's a function of time, right? In a weird way. So Switchfly's very first dynamic packaging customer was American Airlines, and that was 19 years ago. Right. Yeah. Yeah, I love them. I mean, they're a great customer.

Brandon Giella (12:55.051)
Hmm. Interesting. I just got off an American flight and it was great.

Nowell Outlaw (13:04.335)
And they kind of, think, like a lot of things that they do, they kind of started a movement in this direction. when you evaluate all the things that have to happen, just booking a flight is only one piece of the puzzle. And so now you need to figure out.

Brandon Giella (13:12.471)
Hmm.

Brandon Giella (13:22.573)
Hmm.

Nowell Outlaw (13:26.603)
if you're just gonna use, I'll give you an example. Do I wanna use OTAs, so online travel agencies, for my hotel inventory? There's lots of vendors out there, Expedia, Agoda, hotel beds, web beds, all these different cloud beds, you name the company. Or do I wanna have my own hotel relationships?

Brandon Giella (13:45.997)
Hmm.

Brandon Giella (13:50.285)
Hmm.

Nowell Outlaw (13:50.955)
So the platform needs to support both connecting to those third party suppliers, right? Plus the ability to have my own internal contracts that I've managed. So if I'm an airline and I've negotiated with Hilton, right, or Holiday Inn Express or whoever it is, I need to be able to put and manage those contracts into the system, right? That's two separate functional components just for hotel, right?

Brandon Giella (14:08.087)
Mm-hmm.

Brandon Giella (14:19.725)
Yeah.

Nowell Outlaw (14:19.851)
Then you expand upon that and you say, well, it's not just the front end that the user is shopping through. It's the back end services, right? So, you know, because problems do happen in travel. So what is the agent tool that the agent is using to service that booking, right? How complex is that to make it easy to do a cancellation, do a modification, right? Upgrade the room, upgrade to this, and then

Brandon Giella (14:39.661)
Hmm.

Nowell Outlaw (14:49.785)
And then expand that on a global basis to say, well, now I want to be able to service the Far East. I want to service the Caribbean. I want to service North America. But I also want to be able to do that with my internal contracts and the best rates that are available out there between suppliers. Because hotel inventory is in constant flux.

Some vendors have better rates versus other vendors. And so trying to get the best value and best margin out of just those things. And then you add car rentals, add activities, add insurance, add all these things up. And if you're not careful, you're taking on a massive custom build project that is...

Brandon Giella (15:32.333)
Hmm.

Nowell Outlaw (15:33.671)
millions and millions and millions of dollars, but also the ongoing upkeep of all those connectors and supplier things is a really big lift.

Brandon Giella (15:41.165)
Yeah.

Yeah, it's your point. It's a market. It's you could get it set up one day, but then weeks later the prices are all different You know, there's I think was it some other there's some major airlines that are testing out like surge pricing I mean, it's like things are constantly changing hotels airlines all that and in keeping it all in place. It's got to be enormously challenging

Nowell Outlaw (16:03.191)
Well, and also, mean, the ongoing technology support, right?

Brandon Giella (16:08.021)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Nowell Outlaw (16:09.159)
every single connector. if you're connected to a GDS like Sabre, you're connected to the car rental service, you're connected to an activities provider. Well, those guys are also constantly upgrading. So you have to have a constant team of people just supporting the connections. It's not a once coded, it's built and that team goes away. This is a never ending journey of

Brandon Giella (16:22.701)
Hmm.

Brandon Giella (16:28.781)
Hmm, yep.

Brandon Giella (16:33.602)
Yeah.

Nowell Outlaw (16:37.621)
Now I got to support this new connector from these people and this connector from these people. And now there's a state requirement over here, and I have to collect this fee and I have to do this and do all this other stuff. My personal view is it's super complex. you're an airline, just run the airline, right? Because that's complex as it is. To add all this other dimension to it from a programmatic standpoint,

Brandon Giella (16:56.147)
Hahaha

Brandon Giella (17:01.259)
Yeah.

Nowell Outlaw (17:03.231)
you're not really a software company, you are an airline. So be good at what you're good at and let other people who are good at what they're good at be your partners.

Brandon Giella (17:06.711)
That's right.

Brandon Giella (17:13.361)
and maybe reconsider that you can't vibe code this over the weekend on cursor or replit or something. This is not something you can just kind of snap together.

Nowell Outlaw (17:23.831)
It is not, you know, and the interesting thing, I guess I'll tell you this story, which is, you know, we had a customer that decided we're gonna build it ourselves. So 18 months ago, they were convinced because of a technology initiative, right, around some really fancy stuff.

Brandon Giella (17:37.089)
Mm-hmm.

Brandon Giella (17:46.997)
Mm-hmm.

Nowell Outlaw (17:50.923)
that they were gonna go build this themselves. And so they got a vendor, and they started coding away. And that project failed. They're still a customer, they're back, they're great. And we're doing enhancements for them, we're working together. But it's not for the faint of heart. It is a lot of work.

Brandon Giella (17:52.909)
Hmm.

Brandon Giella (18:00.471)
Hmm.

Nowell Outlaw (18:14.229)
to keep both, both to build it out with what it's capable of, but also to keep the thing up, running and functional without any interruptions, without any services, because I think the thing that people focus on is.

they always focus on the front end, right, of the user experience, what's the shopping flow and what's this and that, but there's also the whole downstream system that has to be paid attention to. And once you start adding that stuff on top of each other, you're not just building one house, right? You're building a neighborhood and you need to put in streets and fire hydrants and stoplights and my gosh, we didn't think we had to build the school.

Brandon Giella (18:31.724)
Yeah.

Brandon Giella (18:38.103)
Yeah. Yeah.

Brandon Giella (18:48.951)
Yeah.

Nowell Outlaw (18:58.441)
and we have to do this and you know we think about the financial feeds and you know simple things like

Okay, now we're using points. Well, now we have to connect to our points provider. Well, what if we have two different programs? We have like the gold members and we have the platinum members and they exchange rates at different things. That's a whole coding infrastructure that has to be understood for your teams. And it flows all the way down through the system as far as how you redeem, how that is calculated, how it comes through the financial feeds, how this goes on.

Brandon Giella (19:21.665)
Hmm.

Nowell Outlaw (19:35.321)
I'm telling you it's you know it is million. It's tens of millions of dollars to to consider building it yourself, right?

Brandon Giella (19:44.502)
And not just even one time, I mean all the time. Every year you're spending millions of dollars trying to keep it together. Well I want to do a little bit of storytelling. So I think a lot of people that are listening would understand the loyalty argument. think it's pretty clear people that love to be part of loyalty programs do spend more revenue. And it's clear that this is really hard to do.

Nowell Outlaw (19:50.549)
Yeah, for sure. Keep it up.

Brandon Giella (20:12.033)
But what are some, let's say, okay, so I'm the head of revenue ops or I'm thinking of, I would like to bring this kind of program into my airline or into my travel experience. What are some things that you have seen where customers have gotten some great benefit out of it? They've hit results, even anecdotally. mean, you shared a story earlier, but things that you just heard from people that this has made a big difference.

Nowell Outlaw (20:40.262)
So we launched a partner, Bermuda Air, in less than 90 days. And I think the interesting thing is, I mean, there are airlines out there that have spent the last 18 months trying to get something out in the market. And so, speed,

is needed in order to make this go right. I personally don't believe in taking on big multi year implementation projects because there's too much risk right. And so you know fast wins in my book being in the market and also you know as long as you may not have 100 % day one right because we you know I think we have three RFPs we're answering right now.

Brandon Giella (21:04.887)
Yeah. Yeah.

Nowell Outlaw (21:31.159)
And some of the things you're like, well, that's a nice to have. When you don't have a program today, boy, you should at least get your program launched before you're worrying about this feature that's so minute and so in the future. Is it really the thing you need to have? And so I would say the biggest thing is get up and running. Get it functional. Because there's a lot of work just from.

Brandon Giella (21:45.357)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Brandon Giella (21:55.181)
Hmm.

Nowell Outlaw (21:57.673)
Promoting it getting your loyalty members to use it right getting people to redeem for it understanding the commercial aspects that you have to do And the faster you can get that done the better it is for your business because then you have you know money coming in and you know, mean we've seen programs that have gone from zero to you know, they're on track to do

$500 million in five years, right? you know. Correct.

Brandon Giella (22:27.021)
Gosh. Gosh. And this is additional revenue. This is like, you know, something like that they didn't have before, but they spend some money, you know, put some technology, people together, and then 500 million new dollars over five years. Amazing.

Nowell Outlaw (22:38.965)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, sure. some of these programs, I mean, when you start thinking about if it's long haul flights combined, so long haul is if you're going to Europe, right, from North America or you're going to the Far East or something, well, those plane tickets are not cheap, right?

Brandon Giella (22:53.005)
Hmm.

Brandon Giella (22:58.509)
unfortunately.

Nowell Outlaw (22:58.839)
Combine that with your stay. you're doing Denver to Geneva for a week plus a hotel in Geneva is whatever $700 a night. That's a lot of money.

Brandon Giella (23:08.983)
Yeah. Yeah.

Nowell Outlaw (23:11.691)
that is all of a sudden available to you as an airline that is able to be charged and make money on, right, as well. And so when you think about the additional revenue streams or revenue segments, beyond charging people for their bag or charging people for if they wanna buy a snack on the plane.

Brandon Giella (23:21.037)
Yeah, yeah.

Nowell Outlaw (23:36.567)
No, what if you could, instead of charging them $35 for their bag, what if you could make $500 off of their hotel bill? That's where the margin comes into this, and I think that's the added benefit is it becomes a revenue stream for people.

Brandon Giella (23:45.367)
Yeah, yeah.

Brandon Giella (23:52.846)
You know what I like to I mean cuz yeah when I travel to Europe as a family It's several thousand dollars for a week and what I like about it is if I can put all of that onto one Itinerary or reservation or it's in one email thread that to me is like the biggest thing that just like that because I share it with everybody I'm like just look at the email thread. Just look at the one thing, you know, and it's nice to have all that together Just as a consumer he'll pro tip

Nowell Outlaw (24:15.147)
Yep, for sure.

Brandon Giella (24:19.221)
So yeah, it sounds like a major win, but I'm curious, what is, if you had one thing that you wish that you could get across to somebody who's maybe considering this decision or have, you know, thought about loyalty or dynamic packaging, what's one thing you would want to say to them after, you know, all your experience and what you guys are building at Switchfly?

Nowell Outlaw (24:40.823)
I would say that speed matters. And again, back when we were just talking about that, which is, I've seen too many projects in my life that are these massive lifts and they fail miserably. And I would rather see customers be successful. And being able to have a program launched in say 90 days,

Brandon Giella (24:44.845)
speed.

Nowell Outlaw (25:08.031)
is a meaningful thing, And that having it out there fast, know, airlines are not software companies, right? I mean, some of them have massive IT departments and do all that stuff, but it's also the type of thing where building it yourself is too hard, right? And you're right, no one's vibe coding this, right? It's not gonna be done in a weekend. And you know, but the trick is,

Brandon Giella (25:09.751)
huge.

Brandon Giella (25:17.197)
Hmm.

Brandon Giella (25:26.53)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Nowell Outlaw (25:35.937)
Well, how fast could you get this done? And then once you get it done, how well does it work? And it's an expertise. There's not very many vendors that actually do this kind of stuff. But for an airline, it's pretty powerful, powerful stuff.

Brandon Giella (25:42.957)
That's right.

Brandon Giella (25:47.221)
Mm-hmm.

Brandon Giella (25:51.032)
Hmm.

Hmm. It fits really nicely into the, the kind of narrative that you see today. It's very lean, be very efficient, be very fast because of, know, in different industries and different domains because of AI and, the way that technology is really coming together and kind of all these like pieces are fitting together now that people are able to move a lot faster. So it is nice to like kind of fit into this, this mode where actually you can't, you can't do that and you can do it the right way. It's not like, you know, you're just putting it together. Like it's, it's actually done really well.

which is important.

Nowell Outlaw (26:22.155)
Yeah, I mean, in our case, most of it's actually not technology. When you think about, OK, someone wants to launch, it's 90 days. Most of it's actually not technology work. There's some integration work that's pretty quick. A lot of it is figuring out, OK, how are we going to launch this? How are we going to market this? 

Brandon Giella (26:28.82)
Mmm, yeah.

Brandon Giella (26:35.373)
Hmm.

Brandon Giella (26:44.07)
yeah, okay.

Nowell Outlaw (26:44.503)
So Switchfly, you know, actually brings marketing knowledge to the table to actually help people understand how to promote a program like this, which, you know.

Brandon Giella (26:49.495)
Hmm.

Brandon Giella (26:53.335)
That's cool, okay.

Nowell Outlaw (26:54.965)
Yes, we can show up with the tech, but the tech that's up and running but brings in no bookings helps no one, right? And so, you know, we work with our customers weekly in some cases on how to promote this, how to focus on certain destinations, how to focus on certain segments and really help their programs launch successfully because that's a part of doing this the right way.

Brandon Giella (27:01.549)
Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Brandon Giella (27:17.879)
Yeah.

Brandon Giella (27:21.709)
That's huge. That's huge. Cause yeah, I mean, it's, it's almost September now. And so it's thinking like, okay, by January, I want to have this new program up and running and launch. need to announce it. I need to go to all my, you know, million, uh, loyalty customers. And, and, uh, that's a huge lift, not only just like the actual implementation of something like that, but just the messaging, like to your point, like, do we actually focus on? Like all of that, that's, that's huge. I didn't know it. That's great. Okay. Well,

Nowell Outlaw (27:48.011)
Yeah, for sure.

Brandon Giella (27:51.597)
No, thank you. I have one final question for you. Where are you traveling next?

Nowell Outlaw (27:56.471)
Good question. leave Wednesday on my round the world trip. So I'm going from here to Singapore, Singapore to Bangalore and Bangalore back to Denver in about nine days. And then I will be in Lisbon at the Aviation World Festival the first part of October to go there. And then I might have to go to Nairobi, Kenya with my wife.

Brandon Giella (27:59.931)
Ha

Nowell Outlaw (28:27.384)
from up here.

Brandon Giella (28:28.839)
yeah, fascinating. Cool. What I love about every time I talk to you is you're always jet setting somewhere. And I think that's so cool because, you know, obviously you are building a travel company, but it's neat that you really are practicing what you preach. You're on the road all the time. So yeah, it's cool. It's cool to hear where you've been.

Nowell Outlaw (28:36.096)
Yeah.

Brandon Giella (28:48.907)
Well, Nowell, thank you so much for your time today. I am keen to hear how your travels are going. Would love to hear more about your expose at the Aviation Festival in Lisbon. I know that what you guys are building, having a little bit of inside knowledge is really coming together really, really nice. And I'm excited to see things continue to launch throughout the fall. So Nowell, thank you, and we'll talk next time.

Nowell Outlaw (29:12.971)
Alright, thanks Brandon. Have a good day.

Brandon Giella (29:15.0)
Thanks.